e-collar for a cat?! WHAT?! *kind of a rant*

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Comments

  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 7 April, 2010
    I didn't even know that shock collars existed. I guess the dog world is a lot different from the cat world. :-O
  • Kat WhickerKat Whicker ToledoMember Posts: 1,695
    edited 7 April, 2010
    Does petco sell electric collars FOR cats? if so, im never shopping there again. i used a shock collar on a dog i had, only because she barked when i was gone ( in her crate), and the landlord threatend to shut her up or get rid of her. I only had to use it for a day then took it off. i felt horrible about it, even for a 50 pound dog.
  • edited 7 April, 2010
    ya the dog world is really different. people expect so much fro their dogs, but usually have little tools and information. This results in a lot of everyday, "ordinary", accepted abuse. take alpha rolls for example. brought back into fashion by the show the Dog Whisperer, along with the unfounded, outdated, dominance theory. a lot of people think it is perfectly normal to alpha roll their dog or some dogs, some of the time or in certian circumstances. Try to alpha roll a cat becasue you read somewhere some unfounded "dominance theory" on feline behavior. It could be that the cat is acting aggressive (alpha rolls are usually justified by the people who use/advocate them when a dog acts aggressivelly). Try rolling a cat that has aggression issues. He'll rip your hand to shreds and you'll take a trip to the hospital. Dogs tend to respond by shutting down (of course sometimes you need to also cut off their ariway by strangling them with a choke collar like Cesar Millan does). and choke collars. try to choker train a cat to walk on a leash. he will completelly shut down. yet this is ok with dogs??? shock collars are no more ok for dogs than they are for cats, but rampant in the dog training world.
  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 7 April, 2010
    Nothing to do with shock collars, but I have never seen Cesar Milan cut off a dog's airway, and have noticed that he normally uses the regular kind of collars...and I watch all the time. I think he does a wonderful job with dogs that might otherwise meet a bad end. If by 'alpha roll' you mean making the dog lie down with your hand touching (NOT squashing) his throat, it does work, quickly, and doesn't upset the dog, although it really only needs to be done with a dog that has, if you will, canine ADD for lack of a better term. I've seen Cesar do that maybe once, but we had a Dalmatian years ago who just could not be settled any other way, even after running beside the bicycle for miles. Poor Spotty--she eventually turned out to be a great dog, though.
  • Nuk AnukNuk Anuk Member Posts: 846
    edited 7 April, 2010
    Electrical shock collars... Granted, I know precious little about dog training. (so I won't even comment on that) I tend to think though that if anyone ever put a shock collar on me I probably would pee, just from being shocked!
  • Calisse` BasadaCalisse` Basada DenverMember Posts: 339
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Thank you all for your support Athena, Minou, Steinem, and everyone else, you guys rock my socks! Miss Tiny- Burr Burr- No they do not sell shock collars for cats, dogs only. I don't even think they make a shock collar for a cat. Which is a good thing. Minou: quote"people expect so much fro their dogs, but usually have little tools and information. This results in a lot of everyday, "ordinary", accepted abuse. " I totally agree with you on that one! BooBoo- There is a video of Millan holding a dog on a leash arms length away but the leash is short enough so that he wont get bit because the dog is going crazy. The dog goes nuts enough and pulls crazy enough on the leash that he does cut off his own air supply but it wasn't Millan's fault, he was trying not to get bit. I like Millan and appreciate his style of training work with the advanced aggressive cases, especially his ideas on energy flow. However I do prefer clicker training myself, you can do everything he does without the negative appearance. I've trained Kayla and Zeborah to sit, lay down and come on command, and Zeborah also plays dead, rolls over and begs. This was more for fun then anything, but it's also fun to tell people that cats can be trained and I have proof. However cats think of it differently then dogs do. Dogs think that you have trained them for treats. Cats think that they have trained you to give them treats. lol
  • Jane JohnstonJane Johnston NMMember Posts: 2,957
    edited 8 April, 2010
    It would be more correct to say that cats can be trained but not coerced! (Clicker training works rather well. In fact, there is a whole group of folks on yahoo. I trained Padfoot out of many negative behaviors, but thru positive means). But since this person posted this on dogster, I know that this is regarding shock collars. Yes, it is sick, but people are actually proposing this. True most of it is for so-called invisible fences (there are quite a few sad stories of cats just disappearing forever after this), but they are also advertising them as "training collars". They will be pretty much be assured of having a vicious cat afterward. This is just sick. BTW, the term ecollars got started as a euphemism for shock collar (I suppose electronic. There are many words used to deemphasize shocks, etc. calling them corrections, static, etc etc) There "may" (though I tend to disagree) reasons to use them on dogs (for instance, they do snake avoidance with them, I have read a lot of evidence that this doesn't work all that great, however, with cats?? Yeah, I am getting going. --des
  • Calisse` BasadaCalisse` Basada DenverMember Posts: 339
    edited 8 April, 2010
    I do agree with shock collars for avoidance training. I seriously considered this method when I moved to Colorado because I love to go hiking with my dogs. I never had it done though because we don't live near the poisonous snakes. If there were another way to do avoidance training I would use it but from what I hear that is the best way to do the avoidance training.
  • Kat WhickerKat Whicker ToledoMember Posts: 1,695
    edited 8 April, 2010
    oh ok, i was confused. so some idoit wanted to use a dog shock collar on a CAT????? he should be punched.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Are shock collars an American thing? I can't imagine that the U.K., which has stringent laws against animal abuse, would permit it, but correct me if I'm wrong. And I've never heard of them in Japan, or seen them in my local pet store, although maybe people buy them off the Internet. Another off-the-wall question--is it mostly men who use them? It seems like such a macho thing to me. One good thing that has come out of this thread is that I looked up Petco, and found that they ship internationally! No, I'm not going to buy a shock collar (horrors!), but they do have some toys, grooming aids, and other things you can't buy in Japan. %:D%
  • Cindy BlossCindy Bloss Member Posts: 13
    edited 8 April, 2010
    shock collars shouldn't be used on any animal. How about positive training instead.. I am a firm believer that those are terrible terrible training tools. How would you like to put one on and get a shock to the throat every time you took the wrong step or barked.
  • Annalisa Conserti-JonesAnnalisa Conserti-Jones Member Posts: 5,234
    edited 8 April, 2010
    We agree with Buster. We don't think woofies are that smart (at least they're not as smart as us cats ;)), but we believe that your average woofie who gets a shock collar put on him deep down knows that their person is being cruel, and learns to fear the person rather than to avoid the behavior. :((
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Aha! I looked up electric shock collars/U.K., and discovered that Wales outlawed them last month. You face a stiff fine and jail time if caught using one. Probably the rest of the U.K. will eventually follow suit. You can see details at: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260363/Electric-collars-shock-pets-obedience-banned-Wales.html They are also banned in Denmark, Australia, Germany, Switzerland and Slovenia, and in Austria a ban is under way. One wishes that they would be banned in the U.S., but it seems unlikely, given the violent nature of American society as a whole (yes, a broad generalization of the sort Michael Moore likes to make, but that is how America is viewed by most other nations). Apparently, in countries where these collars are still legal, some people do use them on cats. This reminds me of the Milgram Experiment, carried out at Yale in the early 1960\'s. Probably everyone has heard of it. In this experiment, a volunteer was required to give orders to the professor administering the \"shocks\" (there were actually no real shocks involved) to a subject. Both the professor and the subject both knew that the shocks were imaginary, but the volunteer didn\'t. The subject would scream and complain of a heart ailment. Some of the volunteers couldn\'t stomach the situation and bowed out. Some, however, kept ordering the professor administering the shocks to give the subject stronger and stronger ones. This experiment was conducted less than 2 decades after the end of WWII, and one of the questions it was meant to address was how so many Nazis, who under other circumstances would be ordinary people, were brainwashed into committing atrocities. Unfortunately, if a large number of people are using shock collars, other people will be more likely to think it\'s all right to use them. This may include people who don\'t really understand the pain involved, or people who use them for inappropriate purposes (like the moron who wanted to buy one to toilet train his cat). Anybody out there want to start a movement to ban shock collars in the U.S.? I can\'t, because under the terms of my visa, I am forbidden to engage in any political activity (except voting).
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Some of the things I want to buy online from Petco are: L-Lysine (not available in Japan; most vets have never heard of it), a turbo scratcher (they have my favorite colors, charteuse and fuschia), a REAL Zoom Groom, Feliway (no longer being imported to Japan), MagicCat Hair Remover, non-tip stainless steel bowls, Nature's Miracle, mat remover, and...an e-collar! No, not a shock collar, but a soft version of the usual stiff plastic cone. I'd love to buy premium foods that are not available in Japan, but seeing that my cats eat over 80 pounds of dry food a month, you can imagine what the airmail postage would be, and if you've ever sent anything by surface mail, you'll know that it takes over three months to arrive, and the box is usually crushed and the stuff inside broken. For the time being, I'll stick with the Science Diet Pro that I can buy wholesale. Oh, happy, happy! ~a~
  • Calisse` BasadaCalisse` Basada DenverMember Posts: 339
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Harvey- Now I'm not a psychologist but I am working on a book that does cover the use of shock collars. my theory why they are used covers a few things. Americans look for an easy fix to a problem and usually this is out of laziness, they are also used due to 'mans' need to control. Most humans have some form of inborn need to control something be it their surroundings, family members, pets etc. There was a study found that did say that men were the ones buy's 85% of shock collars usually used for barking issues. Geneticaly men have a lower tolerance of high pitched noises then women do so the barking usually bothers men more then it does women. Also because women have that "motherly" instinct we tend to baby our pets and never want to hurt them, where as men are usually the disciplinarians and they usually see it as their job to keep order. If you want to read more look for 'Let Freedom Bark' when it comes out in a few years lol (if I ever finish it hahaha) I'm very glad to hear that they are ban in the UK, at least someone is makes strides forward. Btw, feliway worked really well for my stressed fosters.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Aha...just as I suspected. MEN and their need to dominate! :-/
  • edited 8 April, 2010
    Hermione, you\'re right, \"coerced\" was not the right word to use. Though I was thinking along the lines of \"coercion by treats\". I probably should have said... \"tempted\", \"entreated\", \"encouraged\".... ;) We have 4 cats, and I have \"trained\" all four of them to use the toilet.... through 100% positive encouragement. However, I do also use mild deterrents to discourage them from scratching on the furniture and eating my plants. A quick squirt from the water bottle will stop them from scratching, then we go to the post and get love & praise for using the post. For the plants, I use \"booby-trap tape\". Little 1.5 inch squares of packing tape, sticky side up, placed strategically around the plants (which are up on shelves). It\'s been a long while since anyone\'s gotten tape on their paws. MOL Cats ain\'t no dummies. Ours very obviously have picked up on certain phrases... \"Time for bed\" = time to cuddle with the humans for the night \"Are you hungry? = FOOD!!!! \"Git Down!\" = awwww darn \"Out of the Kitchen!\" = okay, but I can sit here, right at the line, and \"supervise\", right? (although Loki seems to think \"out\" means \"roll over and try to look cute\" :)) )
  • Elizabeth KElizabeth K ChicagoMember Posts: 11,036
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Zeborah actually some dogs also think that THEY have trained YOU to give them treats! That is how my terrier mix was. As far as shock collars I do not like them for any animals, IMO it is unnecessary to cause pain in training. While shock collars are not marketed for cats, other products that shock are-- I'm sure some of you have heard of the Scat Mat? It 'zaps' the cat when they step on it.
  • Renee RyzRenee Ryz Member Posts: 2,164
    edited 8 April, 2010
    I am glad that your manager stood up for you too. I just do not get people sometimes. I have recently seen advertisements for an invisible fence collar FOR CATS. I am not sure how the doggie ones work, but I would think it is some type of a shock thing right? So if I am right that would mean they are putting out shock collars for kitties. I hope I am wrong.
  • Jane JohnstonJane Johnston NMMember Posts: 2,957
    edited 8 April, 2010
    No, no the idea that cats can't be trained is NOT usually that they aren't smart enough, but that they are too smart. Clicker works well for cats and dogs. I feel that "tempted" is a good word. I feel that the use of these torture implements should be outlawed (then only outlaws will have them?). The fact is that dogs will sometimes put up with them does not mean that they should be used. As for a few rare uses, there might be. But I have read all sorts of down sides included dogs who died from rattle snakes after having the whole set of aversion training. Apparently people think it is a cure-all and it isn't. --des
  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 8 April, 2010
    Zeborah, look on my page for proof that even old, fat, queenly kitties can learn...(see "sit! BooBoo) Meowma likes it because she says you can tell how smart I am by how closely I pay attention. Ringo and I will even do that trick in unison, though it can't get filmed because Meowma only has two hands. Our Rocky was the real clown around here, as he did six or seven funny things when asked. Meowma misses him :( The other two of us aren't active enough to be interested in too much of this foolishness.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 9 April, 2010
    I checked electric shock collars (\"denki shokku karaa\") on Japanese sites, and while they are available here, I only found a few sites selling them, and also several sites criticizing their use as cruel. There are leash laws in Japan; everyone follows them in Tokyo, or else you run the risk of having Fido scooped up by the Animal Control people and either bludgeoned to death on the spot with metal baseball bats, or taken to one of Japan\'s infamous \"all kill\" shelters. Perhaps people in the countryside sometimes let Fido run free, and use these collars to keep him close to home. They are mostly advertised for use in hunting, which is rather strange. Japan doesn\'t allow citizens to own handguns, although the police and yakuza (the Japanese Mafia) have them. If you have a licence, though, you can buy a hunting rifle. Considering that, it\'s strange that there are almost no murders or suicides due to hunting rifles...To get back to the point, hunting is not such a big thing as in the U.S. The reason is that in the past Japan was influenced by Buddhism\'s proscription of eating meat (fish didn\'t count, for some reason). People who lived in the mountains and killed and ate game were considered a ritually impure caste; eating meat only became popular in modern times. I wonder if hunting\'s lack of popularity has a base in its historical connection with social outcasts. So, what are Japanese people really using these shock collars for?
  • Annalisa Conserti-JonesAnnalisa Conserti-Jones Member Posts: 5,234
    edited 9 April, 2010
    Zeborah, that must make the husband and I the odd couple. We both baby our cats, but he's a lot more effusive and patient with them, whereas I do occasionally get annoyed at them for crying for attention at night (Gracie is going through a period like that right now, she won't come seek me on the bed like Boris does, she stands in the hallway and cries for pets until she gets me well awake. Then I have to get up and go do her bidding in the hallway. She has me well trained, but it doesn't mean I'm happy about it. :-/). My husband sleeps right though it. :))!
  • Jane JohnstonJane Johnston NMMember Posts: 2,957
    edited 10 April, 2010
    They have cat "invisible fences" as well (you know where there is no actual fence but the fear of a shock keeps the dog within the boundaries). I used to think these were ok for dogs, but I have heard of serious cases where these were not so benign. I can't believe they could be used for cats. Of course they don't protect the cat from dogs or if something becomes too attractive. I still feel these are in a little different category since the purpose is NOT to shock rather than to shock. However, the shock is a bit different to a cat than a dog, and I think cats tend to be more sensitive. One cat ran off never to be seen again. (Though I think that has happened for dogs as well.) It doesn't say what happens when the local dog bully comes into your yard (because the fence keeps the cat in and not other stuff from coming in) and kills the cat. --des
  • edited 10 April, 2010
    "There is a video of Millan holding a dog on a leash arms length away but the leash is short enough so that he wont get bit because the dog is going crazy. The dog goes nuts enough and pulls crazy enough on the leash that he does cut off his own air supply but it wasn't Millan's fault, he was trying not to get bit. I like Millan and appreciate his style of training work with the advanced aggressive cases, especially his ideas on energy flow." Zeborah, This is not a Cesar thread but I cannot let this go by. there are many, many cases where Millan is seen strangling dogs on purpose (and to Boo, he advocates and uses a slip - aka choke- collar worn high on the neck). Choke collar corrections are one of his main methods. Regarding working with "advanced aggressive cases" , your comments bring me back to exactly what i mentionned before. there are too many cases where dogs are treated harshly and unfairly because of lack of information. Aversives make aggression worse in general. There are many reputable, professional trainers and behaviorists who use NO aversives to remedy canine aggression (no alpha rolls, no choke collar corrections, no neck jabs, ...). They all warn on the use of harsh methods and speak of the fact that not only are their negative side-effects, but that there are alternatives. People like Ali Brown, Patricia McConnell, etc.etc.... all use positive methods (and they actually have true credentials as opposed to proclaiming themselves "dog psychologists" based solely on the fact that they grew up and watched dogs run around on their grand-parents' farm or groomed dogs - the only things that gave Cesar Millan his "training". "cats can be trained and I have proof. However cats think of it differently then dogs do. Dogs think that you have trained them for treats. Cats think that they have trained you to give them treats. lol" Any animal can be trained. When animals are operant, they all "think" they are training YOU to give them rewards. I think that it's really wonderful that you clicker train, and that you speak out against shock collars and refused to sell one. In fact I think it is amazing. I just want you and everyone to think of the fact that it doesn't stop at shock collars... there are many many myths perpetuated about dogs, their behavior and training, that makes people think they need harsh methods, tools and treatements that they simply DO NOT need. We need to be vigilant.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 10 April, 2010
    Okay, this isn't Dogster, but I just thought I'd ask...And I want to make it clear that I do not approve of the use of any kind of violence on any animals. I've always been a cat person, and never had a dog. I like nice doggies who will come up and wag their tails and smell your hand. But I do not like doggies who bark and show every sign of wanting to rip out your jugular if you walk by. For example, I've often seen dogs left in the car in the parking lot while the family goes shopping. I've had ones throw themselves violently against the windows and bark so hysterically that spittle covered the glass. I also have a dog in my neighborhood who barks at a volume that hurts my ears if you get within 100 feet of him (fortunately, he's fenced in, but all bets are off if he got loose). My question is, are these dogs suffering from a lack of training, or from abusive training? I know that dogs have a protective instinct (thus, guard dogs), but this trait doesn't endear those particular doggies to me. Any ideas? :q
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 10 April, 2010
    Just so everyone is clear, kitties can be taught, doggies can be taught, and horsies can be taught, pretty much anything you want them to do, with in reason. To do this properly, you "train" them and "teach" them, thru alot of love, alot of positives, and alot alot of patience, alot of it. You teach them one thing at a time, break it into small baby steps, and do not go on to the next step, until they have learned, the current step. No one can call themselfs a "trainer", if the animal responds out of fear or retubition, that is not a true trainer. Mine are highly trained, they started learning as 8 week old kittens, and they know a plethera of words and sentences. They know their names and come when they are called. The kittens are in the process of learning to keep their claws off the screens. I tell them "no screens" and take their paws off the screen, and tell them that is "baddy boy stuff". They already know what baddy boy means, so just expanding, on what they already know. The other day, one kitten climbed right up the screen, I said no screens, he got right down. Its just a lot of repetition and alot of patience, and using words, they have already learned. When one sees a mis-behaved dog, that just means, the owner never bothered to teach the dog manners, and what is acceptable and what is not. Ever watch the show Its Me Or The Dog? Its on Animal Planet. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
  • Annalisa Conserti-JonesAnnalisa Conserti-Jones Member Posts: 5,234
    edited 10 April, 2010
    A lot of times it's not just training for the dog, but training for the humans. I had a bully puppy run up to me yesterday on my way to my parked car(she had just slipped her leash). The owner said "she's friendly, don't freak", but I sort of knew that the best way to deal with encountering a new dog is to avoid eye contact until they act calm, and sit still and wait for them to do so. When she stopped trying to climb on me, I looked at her and said "that's a good girl!", and she wagged her tail in response. :))! Then her owner came up and leashed her up while she was distracted. :)) The owner looked peeved at puppy, so I said something to the effect of "she's a puppy, she'll be like that for a while, you just have to be patient and vigilant" ;) So with the dog who barks inside a car, or inside a fence? Ignore their behavior and do your own thing unless it changes to something you want (no barking). If that happens use verbal praise (never pet any dog you don't know, even when they have gotten calm and friendly, to the dog that can be perceived as stepping outside the boundary of a newly formed relationship). On average, dogs are pretty smart (note the "average" - some dogs do need extra patience), so if you this is a dog you pass by often, Harvey's mom, s/he'll learn that you are no threat if you act relaxed towards her, as per the above.
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 10 April, 2010
    Your right, its the humans who need to be trained too. They never taught the dogs, and pretty much let them get away with anything, spoiled them, per say, then get upset, when the dogs mis-behave. The man on the show trains, per say, the humans too, and actually, he has a harder time teaching the humans, than the dogs, who catch on pretty quickly, mol. What you did with the puppy is an example of positive reinforcement, see how quickly she responded to being praised, as opposed to the owner, who prob yells at her and punishes her. Hopefully, the owner learned something from you that day. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
  • Elizabeth KElizabeth K ChicagoMember Posts: 11,036
    edited 11 April, 2010
    Many dogs are very territorial. It is not necessarily a lack of training or abuse/poor training, it might just be the owner does not care. My German Shepherd is not aggressive but she does bark at anyone who comes near our property. I don't mind this, it is fine with me if people think twice about entering our property without permission, so I haven't trained her not to bark. It is not a lack of training-- if I tell her to stop barking or call her she will stop. That is all I want. If we are off our property she doesn't bark at people unless they behave suspiciously, and she is very friendly if someone asks to pet her or if I invite someone inside the house. I use positive reinforcement training with her, and we are currently working on training for her to be a therapy dog.
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