Why Do People Go To Breeders?

13

Comments

  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 2 December, 2010
    I want to hayride!Meowma says I have to go to some place called North Carolina with her next weekend. Maybe the hayride could take us there, and I am not afraid of jumping wagons! Bumpurr, we were hoping you might be at that show, and you and Meowma could get rooms at the same place, but it looks like your part of New york is awful far from the show. KK, you are closer, although it's the wrong region...Meowma just says it would be fun to meet some Catsters while out on the road. If we get a chance while school is out next summer, we might go further North if we have been selling enough stuff to pay for rooms and gas.
  • Debra PietrowskiDebra Pietrowski Sussex CountyMember Posts: 1,833
    edited 2 December, 2010
    Boo Boo, what are you selling? The Carolinas is wayyyy to far fur us to travel, MOM stays in the NY - NJ - PA - CT and has been in NH.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 2 December, 2010
    Another thing about buying a cat from a breeder--if you choose the right breeder, you can have a friend for life. At the very least, you can get good advice from your breeder, often advice that vets don't think of. The truth is that most vets aren't really up on cat breeds, and if you ever plan on breeding (most people don't), vets often don't know as much about kitten birth as breeders do, because vets are mostly more involved with preventing pregnancy than in seeing it through. Of course, this is a generalization, but it never hurts to have as many sources of information as possible.
  • Elizabeth KElizabeth K ChicagoMember Posts: 11,036
    edited 2 December, 2010
    Hey I'm going to be in NH next month, anyone know if there are any cat shows coming up there? That is true about breeders! Roxy's breeder sends us photos and updates of their cats, and we send them photos and updates of Roxy. Every year they have a special "Holiday parade" email which they send out to everyone on their list, with photos they've received from all the people who have gotten cats from them. It's really neat to see the photos of Roxy's siblings and other cats in her "family".
  • Jane JohnstonJane Johnston NMMember Posts: 2,957
    edited 2 December, 2010
    Kitten mills are not to the extent of puppy mills. But they do exist. Here is a link, though I suggest you not look at it if you are of a weak constitution: http://www.purebredcatrescue.org/kitten-mills I would guess they are a very small percentage to the no. puppy mills. Normally they supply online places as well as places like Petland. --des
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 2 December, 2010
    Yuck! Obviously, they can't sell kittens with health conditions like those described, so I assume that kitten mills end up "getting rid of" (choose your method) cats that can't be sold in pet stores. The cats I've seen in my local pet store, a chain, are all healthy looking. If you know your breed standards, you might see a kitten who can only be described as "pet quality," but the truth is, many times you can't tell the quality of a kitten at 2-3 months (I'm talking about breed standards here, not health). Lowell, who is an exceptionally good cat, didn't look like anything really special until after he'd been neutered at around 7 months. And I would have no idea how to judge the kittens of other breeds. However, before I learned about how to buy from a breeder, I was doing some comparison shopping among the different branches of this chain. I was mostly looking for red tabby Maine Coons, but was also interested in a cute little long haired Scottish Fold (of course, red tabby and white). The people in the store are up-front about health problems (either that, or they tell you about some health problems and not about others...). One Maine Coon had an undescended testicle. I was told that it would either descend naturally, given time, or else an operation would be necessary. At that time, I had no intention of showing a cat, and didn't know anything about showing anyway, but now I know that an undescended testicle is a disqualifying trait. The Scottish Fold was on sale, but I was told that there was a possibility that he might develop FIP in the future. I had no idea at that time what FIP was, and when I asked, I was told, "Well, it means that the cat dies." Uh, you expect me to pay $500 for a cat who may die within a few months? Now that I know more about cat health, I suspect that the kitten in question had a high titer of coronavirus antibodies (is that right?), which I now know doesn't necessarily mean anything (most cats have coronavirus antibodies, and the titer can go up or down). One thing I find suspicious, though, is that the cats and dogs sold by this chain get cheaper as they get older. Yup, everybody wants a cute, tiny little kitten or puppy. If the kitten or puppy isn't sold fast, the price goes down and down, and...after that, what happens, I don't know. I used to think that the shops then destroyed the animals, but now I think they probably return them to the breeders...maybe. Breeders often have cats who, for whatever reason, take a while to sell. My own breeder would sometimes end up with extremely striking cats who just didn't sell--Elise was one of them. She fits the MC standard very well and has a sunny personality; I don't know why nobody wanted her. It's just fate, or luck. My breeder once told me that long haired cats don't sell very well during the summer months, because they make people feel hot just to look at; they sell better in the winter, when people are cold. In any event, this particular chain has its problems, but I don't think they're getting their kittens from mills. Still, I would never buy from them because they sell their kittens before they are properly socialized, and the prices are ridiculously high. You can get better cats for much less from a breeder. It does take a bit of research, however, to find out what to look for in a cat and to find a good breeder. People who need instant gratification buy at pet shops. Oh, and these pet shops ARE under the auspices of the local health authorities. Everyone who works in the store must get a license that enables them to advertise and sell their animals. I think it's the same license I have. In theory, it means inspection by health department authorities occasionally, although I've never heard of small scale breeders getting inspected. I imagine that pet shops do.
  • Cassandra NoneCassandra None Member Posts: 406
    edited 3 December, 2010
    "Boo Boo, what are you selling?" Is it just me or is that simple sentence funny? :D (I know BooBoos momma and she knows I'm not being snarky or mean. And I am not nearly as funny as she is. :D)
  • Debra PietrowskiDebra Pietrowski Sussex CountyMember Posts: 1,833
    edited 3 December, 2010
    I asked what Boo Boo selling because this is what she said in her post : Meowma just says it would be fun to meet some Catsters while out on the road. If we get a chance while school is out next summer, we might go further North if we have been selling enough stuff to pay for rooms and gas. SOooooo I asked what she was selling :)):))
  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 3 December, 2010
    It's ok, Meowma knows Scootwer's meowmy. Meowma is selling her "stuff" :)) Actually she makes cat mats with insul-brite inside that reflect body heat--for you house or show cage. (See Boris' profile page to see one) She also watches junk shops, yard sales, etc. for interesting wooden items that can be remade into really cool four post beds or daybeds. She does gourd craft, currently making a show-type Meezer... also she's currently making paw-stockings and has a ton of other kitty ideas but not enough time to make them. All the things are unique because Meowma doesn't use patterns, copy other people, or make more than one exact copy of an item. I don't think Catster wants us 'selling things" on here so didn't list my contacts. But If you really want to see, email me and I can give you a website-- unfortunately kind of empty right now because meowma is not listing anything new, until after the show. She isn't making a lot of money but it gets the items out of the house, and if it could pay for us to go to some shows in other Regions, that would be fun. We love the show folks. If theres a "rrreally big shoe" up there June-August please let us know; Meowma wants to do mostly the ones that usually get 300 cats, as she's afraid she might not sell enough things to finance the trip otherwise. However, we may try to do a smaller one closer to home to see how that works out.
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 3 December, 2010
    Roxy, here is a site show people use alot. :-h http://www.catshows.us/ Ku Ju and Boo Boo, would love to have you join us in Late Late Show, its in the What I Love About Catster Section. We start ballpark 9pm E, kitties come on as they can. We have alot of fun! We go on hayrides, Apollo drives the horsies, but the last hayride, he made them jump streams and logs, the kittens, Cowboy, Cruiser and Allie were hanging on for dear life, mol. We had a halloween party, complete with games, had the 6 legged race, bobbing for apples, cider, spooky haunted house. Everybody brings foods, Cruiser is going to Cheffy School, and Pepper helps him with his foods assignments. We have a bonfire, roast marshmellos, Marina has to wipe the kittens sticky little paws and faces. Pepper brings the kittens sippy cuppys, with warm milk, there is always pizza, we have a kitten tent, for the little ones, they have a wide screen TV in there, and watch kitten appropiate movies, they snuggle in their blankeys, and hide cookies in the blankeys and behind the big screen TV, for later. We meet every Friday night, ballpark 9pm E, all kitties are invited to join in the fun!! ~a~ %:D% ~b~ :-h
  • SterlingAndTheSTeamSterlingAndTheSTeam Mount OliveMember Posts: 41,262 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 December, 2010
    Everycat needs to remember to stay on topic =;
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 3 December, 2010
    me, right? :?
  • SterlingAndTheSTeamSterlingAndTheSTeam Mount OliveMember Posts: 41,262 ✭✭✭
    edited 3 December, 2010
    No, everyone. I like talking with friends too, but the original poster's question was Why Do People Go To Breeders? We all need to stay on topic.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 4 December, 2010
    On Facebook, I get updates from a very special shelter called "Kitty Motel." Look it up; not only will you fall in love with the cats and the people who take care of them, but it has given me, at least, some good ideas about how to keep numerous cats in a relatively small space. Recently, there was one cat who was a dead ringer for a Ragdoll. It was either a purebred or a first generation mix. Ragdolls are pretty distinctive looking cats, and I can't imagine that there are too many cats without Ragdoll blood who look exactly like Ragdolls. In any event, this cat had some sort of serious physical disability--I think it was unable to use its hind legs. Not as the result of an accident, but a congenital deformity. Which got me to thinking: how could a purebred cat end up at such a shelter? If the cat was only half Ragdoll, who was it who was able to get hold of an intact Ragdoll and randomly breed it? Was the cat the product of a kitten mill? Was it the product of a backyard breeder? Or was it perhaps born into a legitimate cattery? Obviously, I don't know what the answer is. But it seems logical to assume that someone wasn't taking their breeder responsibilities seriously, no matter who bred the cat. It is easiest to imagine that this kitty was the product of a kitten mill, a backyard breeder, or the half-breed offspring of a cat that had been bought from a breeder who did not require altering. Yet it is also true that there is a dark side to the purebred breeding world, even the world of so-called hobby breeders. A hobby breeder is not necessarily at fault if a cat dies, or a kitten is born dead or with a congenital deformity. I have had a few infant deaths, and even the vet couldn't determine what the cause of death was, other than the fact that the deaths were not caused by anything preventable. Even good catteries can have cats who have been exposed to coronavirus (most cats have), and no matter what sanitary precautions are taken, sometimes coronavirus will mutate into FIP. Keeping a cattery pristine is, of course, of utmost importance, but cats living in group situations are simply more prone to pass contagious diseases around to each other. But what if a cat is born with a disability? I have a cat produced by my cattery that suffers from a potentially fatal disability, which is neither congenital in nature nor contagious. I certainly can't sell him. My only options are to keep him in my cattery (which is what a responsible breeder does) or, if I were to find someone who fell in love with him and wouldn't mind sheltering him for what might be a limited time, I could rehome him--that would be responsible as well. But one never really knows what other breeders do. My breeder friends, who are all active in the cat world and have good reputations, all have a permanent resident cat population that ranges from around 5 to 30 cats. Obviously, if you live in a house, you have more room than if you live in an apartment, but that doesn't make it any easier to take care of thirty cats. Thus, the last thing a breeder wants is an extra cat--a cat who is not part of the breeding program, not a cat for sale, not a beloved pet. I suspect that there may be some breeders (I have a particular one in mind) who have ways of disposing of cats that they cannot house, whether that means having them euthanized or simply abandoning them. Yes, we are licensed and under the auspices of the public health department, but that doesn't mean that the authorities know every detail about the birth and death of every cat. For this and other reasons, breeding can be a very stress-inducing enterprise, especially if you are a responsible sort. I know several breeders who have cracked under the stress and retired from breeding. Some return to breeding eventually, some do not. Right now, I'm taking a rest from breeding, because I was too stressed out the last time Leila had a litter to advertise the kittens and get them sold. I'm going to work on this now, and think another litter is in the near future (that means, I'm thinking of planning a litter--we don't have any oops litters here!). But if the breeder is not on top of things emotionally, things can go bad in a hurry. Obviously, there will always be people who don't feel obligated to feel any sympathy for breeders. But do keep in mind that even the best catteries can have kitten deaths and kittens who cannot be sold for health reasons (and no, this is not exclusively due to inbreeding; there's absolutely no inbreeding going on in my cattery's line, at least in the past 5 generations, but not every kitten is always born perfect). A responsible breeder keeps these cats and gives them the necessary medical care. A less than scrupulous breeder--? I don't know. But for a responsible breeder, the biggest worry is not going into the red financially; it's producing kittens who die after being bought, or ending up with too many cats in the cattery. My breeder's breeder has offered to help me sell the four kittens from Leila's last litter, and I will be happy to have them off my hands. Fortunately, no harm has been done, and I've learned many, many lessons about cat husbandry and responsibility from my breeding experiences.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 4 December, 2010
    Hope that was more or less on topic! %:D%
  • terri echolsterri echols kalamazooMember Posts: 4,758
    edited 4 December, 2010
    leila said: As an American expatriate, I see the U.S. from a slightly different vantage point than people living in the U.S. To me, it seems that in politics and religion, and yes, in the world of cat ownership, a lot of people feel safer believing simple, inflammatory slogans rather than investigating the facts and discovering the truth by themselves. i keep telling you, and telling you...no, it is NOT true that a lot of people here in the U.S. believe slogans instead of having thoughts and following where they lead, we really didn\'t become a nation of idiots while your back was turned. LOUD doesn\'t mean numerous, it certainly doesn\'t mean representative. And so it is with this issue as well. People with extreme beliefs tend to express them extremely, often, and LOUDLY. Simply means that those of us with more flexible mindsets have to get out there and make ourselves known a bit more, i suppose. Because yeah...people going to breeders so they can fool their landlords? Wow. Reality check? If you can afford a purebreed animal, you can probably afford a pet deposit, or quite probably to live somewhere that doesn\'t have a NO PETS policy. Just sayin\'... Not to mention, there are SO many ways around that. Use a friend\'s address? You don\'t have a friend who lives in their own home or somewhere pets are allowed? (Get out more, maybe?) Craigslist anyone? Because um...we found Kaya online, in a Freecycle ad...:r...hey, go to her page! Legitimate cyber-rescue!:)) As for the landlord issue, we like to live dangerously. Two cats are now legal due to new management, but that\'s the max. Wesley is sort of the invisible kitty, though...:-$...seriously. the only people who\'ve ever actually laid eyes on Wes are me, my roommate, and one other person. Six plus months, and he\'s still phantom cat. Adopting feral cats CAN have its advantages...
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 4 December, 2010
    Obviously, the voices that reach Japan are the noisiest ones, and that can lead someone like me, whose only contact with the U.S. is through cyberspace, to believe that they are in the majority. Perhaps I have little patience with people who keep repeating the same patently false beliefs over and over without thinking (I may be accused of doing the same thing, but at least my beliefs are unique; I'm not following the status quo) because I live in Japan. The Japanese have a tendency to repeat things they've heard, no matter how idiotic. Perhaps over half of the Japanese population believe that they are the only country in the world with four seasons. OK, that was OT. As for getting a purebred cat to get around your landlord--your response was a hoot. Now that I think of it, anybody who is spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for a cat either lives in a place where cats are allowed or owns their own home. Actually, buying a purebred cat as a way to get around landlords IS something people do in Japan. This could be another reason why buying a cat at a pet store is popular--no checking whether the customer is allowed to have pets. As a breeder, I'm supposed to ascertain if a client lives in a place where pets are allowed (still rare in the case of rental housing), but like most breeders, I just take the client's word for it. In theory, rescue groups are much more fussy, although again, when I was looking for a rescue cat, I found that no one asked to see my lease. I lived for twenty years in a place where I wasn't allowed to keep pets, but my landlord didn't live on the premises and my cats didn't go outside, so no one ever found out. If they had, I would have moved to a place where pets were okay. I did move to such a place eventually anyway. My cats then were moggies that I had inherited from a friend, and later, cats from my vet's place. He knew that I wasn't allowed to have pets in my apartment, but a lot of people keep pets anyway. And yes, this is another area where breeders can be considered irresponsible. The clients I've worked with so far have all either lived in houses or in apartments and already had a pet, so I figured they were legitimate. When I advertised my kittens, I got a lot of responses, and weeded out the obvious loonies from the people who seemed legit. In fact, all the people I ended up selling my cats to were extremely nice. Some came with their spouse or family. Some brought me gifts, the way it's done in Japan. Which brings up another issue: buying pets online. Famous catteries may get away with having a waiting list for their pets, but most catteries have to advertise. This used to be in cat fancy magazines; now the Internet is the main advertising medium, whether you advertise your cats on your cattery's website, or through a cat breeder group site. I still don't have my own website (anybody wanna design one for me?), so I use the latter. The site I use is the one my own breeder used, and it's the way I found Harvey. Even breeders who have their own website will advertise on other sites as well, just to make sure that their cats have a better chance of getting sold. The site forwards e-mail from prospective buyers to the seller. This e-mail takes the form of a questionnaire that asks questions like where the person lives, whether they are allowed to have pets, and a place where the prospective buyer can write about what they want in a pet, etc. Some of the prospective buyers are obvious loonies, so you don't respond to them. I prefer people who live in or near Tokyo so that I can meet the clients and have the clients meet the cats. This last is left entirely up to the breeder. In theory, the law requires that there is a meeting between breeder and client, but no one checks. My own breeder had no qualms about shipping off cats without meeting the new owners. I have shipped cats myself, but only to people who I knew either through cat shows or through other breeders. This is sort of a grey area. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with advertising over the Internet, but shipping a cat without meeting the owner can be thought of as irresponsible. On the other hand, the breeders who advertise on the site that I do are not sleazy fly by nights who take the money and don't deliver. The site requires documentation that you are a legitimate breeder, and if you do anything dishonest, you can be reported to the local government and have your license revoked. The problem isn't clients not getting the cat they paid for, but anyone who is willing to have a cat shipped to them sight unseen is (I've heard--I've never had this problem) without legal recourse if they don't like the cat once it arrives. Obviously, if the cat is different from the one advertised, or sick, that's a different matter. I don't think that this situation is ideal, but the breeder does have the choice (legally speaking, the obligation) of demanding to see a lease and demanding that a client actually come to the cattery and meet the cat. Breeders who are eager to sell off their cats as quickly as possible so that they won't have to deal with unsold cats may be less picky about who they sell to. Actually, one breeder refused to sell a cat to me because I wanted to put it in cat shows and eventually use it as a stud. The breeder said that the cat was a fraidy cat who wouldn't take well to showing, and that she wanted to sell the cat as a pet, not as a cattery cat. I was disappointed because he was a beautiful red tabby who looked a lot like Harvey. The punchline was this: it turned out that he and Harvey shared the same grandfather, so the cat wouldn't have been suitable as a breeding cat anyway, since all my cats are related to Harvey in some way. As a breeder, you do come up against a number of moral issues, and you find yourself constantly asking, "Is this the responsible thing to do?"
  • Elizabeth KElizabeth K ChicagoMember Posts: 11,036
    edited 4 December, 2010
    I just wanted to mention my vet does not like to spay/neuter until cats are at least 6 months old for health reasons (when feasible), and Roxy's breeder had a requirement of waiting until a certain age (actually they list an age window) before s/n, giving their slow/extended growth as one reason. So not all cats are done a pediatric spay by the breeder. Many breeds have spay/neuter contracts/agreements instead and they may hold back the cat's registration papers until they get proof of s/n.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 4 December, 2010
    That's what I do, and what almost all Japanese breeders do. I've never heard of a Japanese breeder spaying/neutering the cat before selling it. I ended up neutering some older boys I hadn't sold yet because I didn't want them to start spraying, but spaying is a different matter. I withold the pedigree until the buyer sends proof of s/n, but oddly, no one has ever pursued this. I doubt that these people were using the cats for breeding, though. I think they just didn't want the papers. Actually, I've only sold one litter so far. I kept Chibi's first litter, and Leila's second litter is in limbo because I'm planning to sell them but haven't gotten around to it yet.
  • Jane JohnstonJane Johnston NMMember Posts: 2,957
    edited 5 December, 2010
    Sorry re: staying on topic. I think the original question was probably answered. I think there was a secondary question re: that going to a breeder is a bad thing somehow. I think that one way of answering it is this: There are a large no. of children in foster care, why do you have your own children when there are so many? Why not adopt one? There are also children in other countries. The answer is that not everyone wants to do this. A legitimate breeder is a fine and wonderful thing. Pox on the houses of the kitty (and puppy) mills and folks who wnat their children to see the wonders of birth in this day and age. --des
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 5 December, 2010
    Forget I posted about inviting other kitties to the LLS, based on some kitties responces, I just thought they might enjoy joining in the fun, so to whoever took offense at it, I do apologize, Bump got put on detention, if it makes ya feel anybetter. :-h I also feel, why to people go to breeders, is a very very broad question, that involve alot alot of factors, its not a cut and dry anser, and I feel those who felt strongly about breeders, and those who did not, had some very valid points, and I liked hearing others point of views, and I also learned some things in the process, which, I like to learn. :D At one time, I looked in Siberanians, its a fairly new breed, not many breeders around. One breeder had like about a zillion question application, to fill out, and one of the questions was, if you live in an apt, can you have a kitty, and they wanted a landlord reference. They also asked, why if you had to change your living arraingements, would you do whatever it took, to keep the kitty. She also wanted you to pick a kitten, from the pictures, and send a deposit, you were not allowed to come visit the kittens in person, and the kittens could not go, until they were 16 weeks. I told her, I was not picking a kitten from a picture, that their little personalities played a huge factor, she wanted to be able to call my vet, my vet was willing to talk to her, but then, I said, ya know what, this is getting to be just too much. I feel breeders should be cautious, but this was a little over the line, per say, so I can see, how some might have not good feelings about breeders. I still do not understand, why, it makes a difference, if a person lives in an apt, if they get a breed cat or a rescue cat, a cat is a cat, either the landlord is going to allow it, or they are not. Hope this one stayed on subject, mol. Bump also had to write 300 times, I will stay on subject, which since he don't know how to write, mol, guess who had to do it, yup, Smokey, and she charged Bump for it. :))
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 6 December, 2010
    MOL, Bumpurr. I agree that Padfoot is right. We probably have answered the original question, but on the other hand, our various viewpoints on the issue of purebreds and breeders were enlightening to me, at least. This topic doesn't come up much on Catster, and there's no getting around the fact that there are Catster members who disapprove of the whole breeding/breeder/purebred thing. If I had a dime for every time I've heard the statement "buying a cat means that one less shelter kitty gets a home," I'd be rich. Well, maybe not rich, but able to buy the biggest size of coffee at Starbucks. Actually, I just fell into the cat world because I wanted a Maine Coon, and the only way you can get a Maine Coon in Japan is to buy one, and one thing led to another. Previous to that, I thought people with purebred cats were effete and probably not true cat lovers. I love moggies, and would love to have more of them, but...the inn is full. As for the adopting a child metaphor, I'm not sure if Padfoot is using it the same way that I would. I have, for various reasons, chosen to remain childless. That's just my own lifestyle, and I certainly don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with having children! Yet there are many children, in the U.S. and in Japan, who are conceived by accident, or just because making babies is what you do when you get married, or because people, like all animals, feel an instinctive urge to reproduce. What does this have to do with cats? Well, if a major point of getting a cat from a shelter is to save lives, then perhaps more people who want children should consider adopting underprivileged or special needs children, rather than having their own. I know I'm being oversensitive, but I do not like getting the feeling that some people think I am being uncaring or irresponsible because I have pedigreed cats and am a breeder. Yes, people have implied such things, and even said them directly. I am not being paranoid. All cats deserve love, but I am dubious about conflating cat ownership with doing a good deed. If owning a cat must involve doing a good deed, then why not say the same thing about human children? Furthermore, I think that many people really don't know what goes on in the world of breeding and purebred cats. Even I don't know everything. I observe as I go along, and report my observations--and not all of them are positive--for the benefit of people who haven't had the experiences I have. Certainly I didn't know what I do now until 2007, when I got Harvey. One thing I have always found curious about Catster is that breeds are a big topic. Everyone wants to know what "breed" their (usually moggy) cat is. There are several places on Catster devoted to breeds. Yet people who do have purebred cats bought from a breeder may feel marginalized at times. I know that I have. I can't help but take some remarks about breeders personally, even though I know that these remarks are meant for backyard breeders or kitten mills. Even I have my doubts about the practices of some breeders, and often reflect on whether what I have done or am doing as a breeder is right. The thing is that nothing in life is ever black and white, and providing information that allows people to see the grey is important in any debate. Saving a cat's life is a wonderful thing. I saved Spike's life. But cat ownership should not simply be about saving the life of a cat. For some people, that is a very important thing. For other people, finding a cat who suits their personality and lifestyle is the most important thing. I had Spike long before I got my Maine Coons, and he's still my lover boy, but not because I saved his life, but because Spike is Spike. That's me. Other people can believe or behave differently. What is important is not to be judgmental--except, of course, regarding people who are cruel to animals or negligent in caring for them.
  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 6 December, 2010
    ****Saving a cat's life is a wonderful thing. I saved Spike's life. But cat ownership should not simply be about saving the life of a cat. For some people, that is a very important thing. For other people, finding a cat who suits their personality and lifestyle is the most important thing. ***** .;c;;c;;c; for this post, Harvey. Thanks for getting this into words. I agree--sometimes people seem to take up a 'cause' and get so passionate about it that they can only see ONE way of doing things. Here on Catster, it seems to be adoption, feeding, and declawing. Since I don't breed or show (yet) I feel the cold shoulder most when I voice my opinions about the other 2- even though my opinions are usually involving "gray areas" - I think it's better to declaw than to throw a cat away if the person is unwilling to work with the cat, or really attaches a lot of importance to their furniture (yes, Meowma would be mad as ____if a kitty clawed up a $2000 sofa if she owned such a thing) and I don't think it's the end of the world if the owner feeds "junk" if that's all the kitty wants to eat. What's funny to me is that going on such a crusade will make some people go "heck with it, if I have to chop up raw chicken wings or smell cans",or "I have to worry about my furniture" or "I can't go to a breeder and et this GORGEOUS cat I want without being attacked, then I won't get a cat!" After all, Grandmeowma would blister meowma's butt for tearing up things, and sometimes fed her junk that tasted wonderful but was 'bad'. That does not mean she wasn't loved. And,as Harvey mentioned, most people "breed" their own kids with their choice of mates as opposed to getting one that might be an "undesirable" color or have something "wrong" with it. Then we will have less people wanting kitties period, and while some might think that's ok we do NOT. As long as said cat is HAPPY, and loved, we encourage people to get one.
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 6 December, 2010
    I can't tell you, how many spectators, approach me and ask, what breed is he? They were not aware, that CFA has HHP's. Their little faces light up, so happy, that they can show their rescue kitty. I explain the rules, and what they need to do, and what is not allowed. Their faces fall, when I get to the part, that declawed kitties are not allowed. Each and every one of them, has a rescue kitty, weather the kitty wandered in or they adopted the kitty from a shelter, and your talking alot of spectators, at alot of shows, in alot of cities and states, so..... alot of people do adopt rescue kitties, have heard this hundreds and hundreds of times at shows, plus all the rescue groups, who bring the kitties to the shows, and alot get adopted. :D So the whole nation, is not, just going to breeders, very nicely tied in, to the original post, mol. :)) As far as a $2000 sofa getting wrecked, which I don;t understand, weather it makes a difference, weather its a breed cat or a rescued cat, mol. An untrained cat, which is the owners fault, not the kitty's fault, will wreck things and destroy things, doesn't matter if its a breed cat or a rescue cat. And even getting a breed cat, does not guarantee, the kitty will not wreck things, you have to train said kitty. And even a well trained kitty, especially kittens, breed or not, are going to break things, thats what kittens do. And I feel, if a $2000 sofa, is more important, to someone, than the kitty, then maybe they should not have animals, or kids, as any mother with a kid can tell you, kids wreck things, it just goes with the territory. I know my brother and I did, mol, when we were little kids, mol, sent to our rooms many a times, which in those days, there was no TV, no computer, no game boxes, etc, ya had your books, that was it, and if you were lucky, the cats came in, and you could play with them. :)) :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 6 December, 2010
    Thanks, BooBoo! What matters is that the cat is loved and taken care of. That's it in a nutshell. If you can save a life in the process, all for the better. MOL again, Bumpurr. I can assure you that being a purebred does not mean that a cat won't be destructive. The cat may be less likely to have a URI, ear mites, or parasites when adopted (no guarantee there, however), and be likely to be better socialized than a rescue (that's not guaranteed, either), but as for destructiveness...!!! Maine Coons are known as silly clowns, but I've never read about them being destructive. My present crew, led by their ringleader Harvard, have destroyed three computers in the past year, have ripped open numerous boxes and strewn the contents all over the apartment, have moved a Dyson vaccum cleaner that's even heavy for me to another room, and so on ad infinitum. Harvard is a lovely cat, but boy, is he a holy terror. I can't train this out of him, and while I always tear my hair at his latest act of terrorism, I find it rather amusing--it's just his personality. They say curiosity killed the cat, but in Harvard's case, his curiosity has about destroyed my apartment. On the other hand, the two Japanese moggies I had before Spike were the best-behaved cats I've ever had. Their mother was a rescued feral owned by my friend; Momcat escaped through the bathroom window the night before she was to be spayed, and came back the next morning with a smile on her face and three kittens in her belly. I ended up with two. They never clawed anything, they never had accidents, and while their personalities remained a bit feral at times, they were GOOD cats. I loved them, but then, I love all my cats (except maybe for the four I'm going to dump on my breeder's breeder in a few weeks, MOL). I agree that anyone who can't take having their furniture savaged or the other inconveniences having a cat may impose probably shouldn't have a cat. When I found they liked clawing cloth-covered sofas, I got a leather one (no clawing). I gave up on house plants, even fake ones. Forget about ornaments of any kind. No Christmas tree. Oh, yes, they've got me trained well! I imagine that there may be some breeds that are less likely to jump around and destroy things--Persians, perhaps. And some breeds, like Siamese, are known for things like climbing the curtains. In any event, just for the record, I love moggies and my Maine Coons equally. I enjoy the cat show world, but as Bumpurr says, it's not restricted to purebreds, and it's simply another way to enjoy cats. It isn't necessarily a status thing. I've never thought my cats were superior because I show them, but I do get an ego boost when they get ribbons. A small vice, that. Love to all you kitties out there... %:D%
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 6 December, 2010
    MOL Harvey! :)) Well.... hate to disagree with you, mol, don't think we ever have, mol, we are usually on the same page, but... Bump knows, he is superior, mol. :)) The judges set him on the table, he sits down, and as the judges always say, he surveys his little kingdom, here I am look at me, he has show presence, he knows he is special, mol. :)) He loves to show! =; The kittens fly thu the house, at warp speed, like crazy boys, sometimes its just a blur. In their travels thru deep space, they knock down, alot, of things, and have broken alot of things. Bump was never that bad as a kitten, mol, and he and the kittens, are the same breeds. =; Some people go to breeders, because they are looking for a certain personality "type", per say, but even in breed cats, each cat is an individual, and may not conform to breed standards. :D Bump has to keep everybody entertained, mol, he has a sense of humor, and likes to kid around, makes alot of people laugh, but I don't think Howie Mandel, has anything to worry about, mol. :))
  • janice lancasterjanice lancaster temple gaMember Posts: 2,505
    edited 6 December, 2010
    ***********As far as a $2000 sofa getting wrecked, which I don;t understand, weather it makes a difference, weather its a breed cat or a rescued cat, mol. An untrained cat, which is the owners fault, not the kitty's fault, will wreck things and destroy things, doesn't matter if its a breed cat or a rescue cat. #********* I think you mis-interpreted my post, I guess it weas not clear; I was pointing out that condemning breeders/promoting rescue was sort of a hot button issue just like declawing and what/how to feed are.
  • Valerie DurhamValerie Durham Member Posts: 8,724
    edited 7 December, 2010
    Well, Bumpurr, you're certainly right that every cat has a unique personality, whether it's a purebred or not. Some have "presence" or "charisma," some don't. Bumpurr obviously has it, and Harvard does as well. Harvard is a good specimen of the Maine Coon breed, but not as good as Lowell. He gets by in the ring because he's easy to handle and interacts with the judges. Harvey started out being spacy but not hostile, then ended up trying to kill the judges. But vets love him. He had some kind of URI a few months ago and had to spend a few days at the vet's, and everybody loved him because he was so relaxed and friedly. It's a toss-up as to whether cattery cats or rescues are necessarily more laid-back; it depends on the breed (in the case of a purebred), but more importantly, the way a cat has been raised. Nature AND nurture. Speaking of Spike, I don't know if he was a feral or a kitten who had been dumped in a park with his siblings. Somebody saved him and his brother, and they ended up at my vet's. When I asked my vet if he had a cat to adopt out (my moggy Boku had just died at the age of 18), he showed me Spike and his red tabby brother. The vet said that they had been FIV positive when rescued, and offered to recheck them for me. Lo and behold, they were now FIV negative! Whether he made a mistake in the first place, or, as he said, the kittens had fought off the disease, Spike has tested negative every time thereafter. I wanted to adopt the brother as well, but he was truly feral. He still lives in my vet's cat sanctuary, and my vet says he's one of those cats who will never be able to become pets. From the start, Spike was a very sweet and affectionate cat. I was thinking about what I wrote earlier about rescuing cats and feeling good that you have saved a life. I do feel that way with Spike. He never would have been put down, but it was only because I was looking for a cat at that time and he was available that we met. I often wonder what his life would have been like if I hadn't adopted him. I always whisper in his ear, "No matter what happens, I'll never, ever let you have to live outside again." Nor does he want to live outside. He's never tried to escape. He remembers what his life was like in the park, fending off carnivorous crows. One thing about buying a pedigreed cat is that, should something happen and you become unable to keep the cat, it will probably be easier to rehome than a moggy. In theory, your breeder is supposed to take the cat back. If not, there are breed specific rescues. I don't know anything about them, but I imagine that they follow a no-kill policy. A true pedigreed cat, with papers and a nice personality, will probably be able to find a home even if placed in a regular shelter. And friends and relatives may be willing to take in the cat. A while back, a certain Maine Coon breeder became ill, and had to rehome her cats--a lot of cats. Her cat show cronies got together and got them all homes. They were lovely cats with beautiful eyes, and I know several breeders who incorporated these "rescued" cats in their breeding programs. I may have some of these cats in my cats' breeding line--have to check. In any event, when you adopt (or buy) a cat, it's always a good idea to have a contingency plan--what will I do with this cat if I can no longer take care of it? Spike could go back to the vet; I'm sure my Maine Coons could find homes with the help of my friends. So, yes, I do feel good about giving Spike a home. He's extra special to me that way. But I love all my cats.
  • Elizabeth KElizabeth K ChicagoMember Posts: 11,036
    edited 7 December, 2010
    Hey Spike just wanted to mention, aside from the possibility of "false positives" kittens may also test positive at first if their mother is FIV positive, because they have the maternal antibodies even though they themselves are not FIV positive. When maternal immunity wears off they may no longer test positive. As far as which cats are more friendly or destructive or personalities of cats from breeders vs rescues, I think it is an individual thing but socialization can play a role as well. My feral rescue kittens are some of the friendliest and most tolerant, and vets and such as always talking about how well-behaved they are. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I bottle-fed them from 3 weeks old and so they were handled/held almost constantly. I thought this was interesting: "Saving a cat's life is a wonderful thing. I saved Spike's life. But cat ownership should not simply be about saving the life of a cat." The fact of the matter is I would not own most of my cats but for that reason. I have 5 cats who I caught as feral kittens. Saving their lives (or wanting to give them better/longer lives than ferals have) is the only reason I took them in initially. Church was about 6-7 weeks old, I didn't really think about cat ownership when I caught him I just thought about getting him off the streets. Pretty much the same for the litter of 7 (of which I kept 4.) None of them were acquired on purpose, I didn't say "Hey I want a cat so I'll go catch one!" I just happened upon them and could not leave them out there to turn feral... Most of them I was planning to foster and find homes for them, but I got attached and/or could not find good homes. After I had the litter of 7 for a while I did decide I wanted to keep one or two, but I would not have planned to keep 4, it just kinda worked out that way and then eventually I realized that even if I did find someone good to adopt them (which would have been very unlikely/difficult as by then they were past the "cute baby" stage and sadly no one was interested in them) I did not want to give them up, I was too attached and I knew they were not going to be going anywhere.
  • Lisa DausmanLisa Dausman Member Posts: 5,216
    edited 7 December, 2010
    Boo Boo, I was not at all, picking on you, mol, sorry if it came across that way, it was absolutly, not my intention. :-h When people write long posts, which Bump does too, mol, sometimes I forget, what was in the post, and sometimes who even wrote it, mol, I actually didn't even remember it was you, mol. :)) And yes, its possible I mis understood what you were saying, it was quite a challenge getting home last night, due to the severe weather, and actaully, I think what happened, is I got the above sofa post, mixed up, with another post, in a different section. Person was asking about declawing, because she didn't want her furniture ruined, because as he/she put it, why should he/she have to live with ruined furniture, or something to that effect. That one, Bump ain't even gonna touch, that one, would get him in trouble for sure, mol, I can just see him getting suspened from after school activities on that one, mol. :)) As far as the FIV, it can be a false positive, and it depends on what test they used, one is better than the other, and if the cat tests positive, the cat should be retested in a few months, or something to that effect, without looking it up, cannot remember for certain. :D
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